NUD Balance?

[th15]

Hey guys, I need some more feedback about the balance of the various NUDs in the game.

The levels that you see if the game now are intended to be tutorial levels to ease players into the game, so they are intentionally easy. Try playing the last few levels in survival mode for a taste of how the game should be.

What I'm trying to achieve is to make as many NUD building strategies viable as possible. Do you guys feel that you can build NUDs in many different ways? Or do you feel that building 3x3 blocks of Monos is just too effective? Remember to play the latest version, as the Monos are considerably less efficient.

I want to get balance to an acceptable level before I start creating more content because any changes that I make later would mean re-creating lots of level content.

[SHAD0Wdump]

Whatever you do,don't feel there is a lack of interest in this game,the new BSF might make it feel like that.

[Draco18s]

Mmmm....I think one of the problems is that there isn't a decent replacement for the mono that costs more, and is more effective, but doesn't cost as much as a duo or the lazer. 300+ is just too expensive for when you need good damage and lots of them.

The other problem is that there's no good "this be a wall, yo" piece we can drop. The best we have is a mono at $100 a pop, which makes building an effective maze with your current damage slow, almost too slow on some levels.

I just feel hemmed in by the large costs and the low rates of cash gain.

[Nyme]

I can tell you what's really broken in the game now. Surround a fully-upgraded Warp with Di/Tri nuds. It will have so high fire rate that the creeps advance extremely slowly. I mean, it's like 1 or 2 Warps and you can stall them indefinitely. As you can see in my screenshot, there are likely more than ten creeps in those rows.



I think the "Mono-problem" is not such a huge one on survival, I was mainly concerned over it in normal mode, the levels being too easy, but you won't propably achieve good scores in normal too with only Monos.

Lances are still possibly the most useful Nud, and now even more powerful with added damage from Shrap. Lances are useless on smaller maps, though, in which case one just uses Shraps. They're not actually overpowered, because they normally miss about 40% of their shots. It's hard to say anything about some combos being useless and others overpowered, because the best combo (my opinion) around includes all the different turrets (except Monos, but they have their purpose of maze construction).

Mmmm....I think one of the problems is that there isn't a decent replacement for the mono that costs more, and is more effective, but doesn't cost as much as a duo or the lazer. 300+ is just too expensive for when you need good damage and lots of them.

Be careful with this, because you could be making a turret with low cost and good damage, which would be overpowered.

[th15]

The mono is indeed meant as material to create mazes with.

A tower that is better than a mono but cheaper than a lance/shrap, well that would be an upgraded mono wouldn't it?

[Draco18s]

The mono is indeed meant as material to create mazes with.

A tower that is better than a mono but cheaper than a lance/shrap, well that would be an upgraded mono wouldn't it?

Except that an upgraded mono costs more than a lance

100 + 250 > 300

Now, if I were to upgrade an existing mono, that actually adds LESS damage to the maze than buying a lance (hmm...7 damage or 10-40?).

I haven't yet played to a map that has shraps (I play about one level any time I play the game and it takes me probably an hour and get less out of it than spending the same hour playing Triangle Wizard, Left 4 Dead, or Dwarf Fortress).

Mmmm....I think one of the problems is that there isn't a decent replacement for the mono that costs more, and is more effective, but doesn't cost as much as a duo or the lazer. 300+ is just too expensive for when you need good damage and lots of them.

Be careful with this, because you could be making a turret with low cost and good damage, which would be overpowered.

Two different towers: one extremely low cost (say, cut a mono in half) and one that's between a mono and a duo in price but comperable usefulness (360 degree firing arc, direct damage).

My problem is that if I have a half-built maze and $300 what am I to buy?

3 more monos to make the maze 5% longer?

1 lance that if placed right increases damage done by 2% of my total?

Or upgrade a mono to a duo and increase damage by....1% of my total?

I'm going to grab 3 monos. But 3 monos adding 5% maze length and maybe 1 or 2% more damage isn't enough: creeps are already leaking out the end with 10% of the total health remaining (on average).

Any mistakes in construction that I made can't be remedied by "restart wave" and "undo single last tower BUILT" (upgrades can't be undone, which is moderately annoying). Instead I have to limp along with what I have or restart the level entirely (which I thought was supposed to be averted with this game).



Edit:

Actually, the crux of the issue here is that instead of having TD games be all about "which tower results in the most damage per $" you've turned it into a much more complicated mathematical construct of "which tower pattern results in the best damage per $ and how many of those can I fit on a map before compromising on maze length." Which ends up being "not fun" when you come to a slightly less efficient conclusion than optimal and can't win.

Other possibilities are "nail-bitingly efficient" (the bare minimum needed to succeed) which isn't fun because you're losing, but at a rate at which you will still complete the level (and face a harder one next). This occurs when a player ignores the math and wades in with only the basic concept.

"Over efficient" (ex: the super efficient warp nud problem) which isn't fun because it takes forever and ceases to be interactive (ex: Onslaught2's Laser Chain--so efficient I left the game alone for 4 hours and still hadn't come close to the point at which I was starting to lose slowly, that took another two hours). This occurs when someone does the math and finds out the perfect mathematical solution to the problem.

[Himura.Kenshin]

I haven't yet played to a map that has shraps (I play about one level any time I play the game and it takes me probably an hour and get less out of it than spending the same hour playing Triangle Wizard, Left 4 Dead, or Dwarf Fortress).

It's takes you an HOUR to beat each level? Ha. Haha. Hahaha.

Even if you mean that it took you an hour over all, you still haven't gotten to the shrap levels. It takes me about ten-fifteen minutes to beat the whole game, and that's not going particularly fast or anything.

[joe]

i played on easy and i couldn't beat the 4th level despite several tries

the difficulty scales upwards too fast. i was playing on easy and i certainly never could save any money to get a higher interest %, i was putting up towers as fast as i could and still getting killed.

also i just felt like all the towers were so weak... it wasn't very satisfying.

also the game desperately needs a pause button and a couple minor UI changes. for example, when i don't have enough money and i click on a blank grid, it disables my cursor so that i have to select a tower again and then again click on the grid, rather than keeping the cursor active. and if i sell a tower to put a different one in the same spot, in the <1 second it takes to click 3 times, several enemies go through the gap. it's really annoying.

[Himura.Kenshin]

It's possible to beat each and every level by just massing MonoNUDs (retested for v.07 and found correct), so I don't know what kind of difficulty curve you're expecting. :\

[joe]

i was saving for the new towers that get introduced. it's not much fun to have a new different tower every level and then not be able to use it

i beat the first level with the lancets but i couldn't beat the 2nd lancet level (large square leading to short path straight right)

[The Boz]

It's possible to beat each and every level by just massing MonoNUDs (retested for v.07 and found correct), so I don't know what kind of difficulty curve you're expecting. :\

It's possible to beat each and every level by just massing MonoNUDs or GlowNUDs(retested for v.08 and found correct).

[th15]

Yea you're right, they're still too efficient. I'll jack up the damage for lancets and bring down the shrapnud cooldown for the next version.

[The Boz]

Or, you may do what you started with Glows. "NUDs of the same type do not buff each other". But that would mean you lose that sweet Lancet-Lancet thing, and that thing is sweet... Maybe just limit it to Monos and Glows?

[th15]

Meh? Glows do buff each other. I suppose you mean Warps, but the adjacency bonuses are a core part of the game so I'd rather avoid that.

By making the lancets and shraps better I want to make them even more viable for their intended purpose, rewarding you for putting the right NUD in the right place. They'll never be more effective than glows/monos in a wall, but placed in the right place they'll be more effective than glows/monos can ever be.

[Nyme]

A hour of playing the newest version shows a few things.

As stated before, Glows are quite like what Monos were. The Glows give good bonuses to DPS, cost the same as Monos and always hit. Fortunately the need for LOS limits their placement. I would nerf the bonus a little, and perhaps reduce the damage added by upgrading (three times increase for first upgrade, over two times for the final upgrade).

Shrap is now not very useful. I'm all for making it shoot in every direction, but let's have a look at the kills it makes. In the tip of a single-nud wide row, surrounded by other walls, enabling for the shrapnel to stay for a long time and three firing directions, the Shrap has roughly 50% accuracy when it is flanked by a Warp. In one of my runs, the fully-upgraded Shrap got 60 kills, costing $1500, while Glows racked 20-40 kills, costing $100...

So, the Shrap is decent when correctly placed, but those places are few. It should be more effective when placed correctly. Increase of fire rate? Number of projectiles? Damage? I don't know, but it needs to be buffed (but not too much).