~~[10:49] th15: how about you convince me about why we need min max targeting in a game where you can force fire again?
[10:50] th15: or inadvertently hit non targeted objects
[10:50] Kaelis: For weapons that shoot at targets of certain sizes only? Isnt that obvious?
[10:50] th15: yesssssss and ive been through this
[10:51] th15: because i tried to implement fighters at one point
[10:51] th15: and it didn't work at all
[10:51] th15: because of the way bullets are handled, you're still going to be able to hit targets that you're not actually targeting
[10:51] th15: so, even if the turret can't target the object
[10:51] th15: it can still very hit it
[10:51] Kaelis: Well i must admit im kind of OCD about this one =P
[10:51] th15: still very well hit it
[10:51] th15: but it's pointless
[10:51] th15: because in the end you could always force fire
[10:52] th15: or if theres a larger target behind
[10:52] th15: it'll still get in the way and get hit
[10:52] th15: it's what made fighters bloody pointless
[10:52] th15: zipping about and getting hit by battleship weaponry
[10:52] Kaelis: People still do them
[10:52] th15: i even made them dodge bulelts 75% of the time
[10:52] th15: and they still fried
[10:52] Kaelis: Yep people keep trying to do them.
[10:52] Kaelis: *Yet
[10:52] th15: then they just haven't discovered why its bloody pointless
[10:53] Kaelis: And actually succeed. This would only help.
[10:53] Kaelis: But you do have a point, of course.
[10:53] th15: well it wouldn't succeed
[10:53] th15: because its not any better than the approach i used
[10:53] th15: and i had fighters as a separate object class altogether
[10:53] th15: that's why turrets have a l_ptarget
[10:53] th15: variable
[10:53] th15: its for preferred target
[10:53] th15: to tell the turret to fire at fighters first or ships first
[10:54] th15: but it didnt matter
[10:54] th15: it just doesn't work
[10:54] th15: if you want fighters, let the demeter use custom sprites
[10:54] th15: and beef up the demeters with better AI/movement
[10:54] th15: then only PD guns can shoot them
[10:55] th15: and we won't have to muck with targeting at all
[10:55] Kaelis: Okay so i guess ill just leave it for later, and try to do it myself. Ive never dropped a feature i planned, and i don't plan to do it now =P
[10:55] th15: yes but the feature hre isn't so much "min/max targeting" as it is "viable fighters"
[10:55] th15: applying this would'nt achieve the greater purpose
[10:55] Kaelis: Not really
[10:55] Kaelis: Its not just for fighters
[10:56] th15: you probably could carry the min/max target size constraints through to bullet collisions
[10:56] Kaelis: In general making weapons ignore certain sizes of targets would be useful. Class-specific weapons, so to speak.
[10:56] th15: so turrets will never hit what they're not supposed to
[10:56] th15: but that's another funbunch of code to mess with
[10:57] th15: useful how?
[10:57] Kaelis: For example, you have a very slow rotating turret. Now, you don't want it to target fast targets. You want it to focus on the big guys.
[10:57] Kaelis: Its very annoying.
[10:58] Kaelis: Weapons that are intended to be big hitters waste time on trying to fire at small, fast targets
[10:58] th15: this isn't a solution for that
[10:58] th15: that's a preference value, not a constraint
[10:58] Kaelis: Anyway, like i said, ill just try to implement myself later. Because even if its pointless and utterly useless, i just have to do it.
[10:58] th15: alright then
[10:59] Kaelis: Constraint is good enough, from what ive gathered
[10:59] th15: uhh you have to leave the initializers in there though, as there's code in a few places as it is now
[11:00] Kaelis: As for fighters, if we want a real argument, wed need to make a thread on wyrdysm. Because, lets face it, neither one of us has any experience with making ships in general, not to mention fighters =P
[11:00] th15: huh?
[11:00] th15: what's making ships got to do with fighters?
[11:00] th15: haven't you played that build of BSF with fighters?
[11:00] Kaelis: I mean the fact that people make fighters, and they somehow work, yet you say they shouldnt.
[11:01] th15: ... exactly how many players actually make ships that are sensible you think?
[11:01] th15: how many ships can sensibly be matched with each other
[11:01] th15: and not devolve into stupidity in two seconds
[11:01] Kaelis: Well im sure there are some...
So? This is the case in real life too, is it not? You might not intend to flatten that house or annihilate that car with a stray artillery round, but it could happen.[10:51] th15: because of the way bullets are handled, you're still going to be able to hit targets that you're not actually targeting
Is this not a risk of flying a tiny fighter between two giant warships exchanging ordinance anyway? Lucky/unlucky hits are an eventuality. As for force firing? Many fighters are FAR, FAR too fast to get hit by projectile force fire, and would only be in the width of a beam for a few frames at best.[10:51] th15: because in the end you could always force fire
[10:52] th15: or if theres a larger target behind
[10:52] th15: it'll still get in the way and get hit
This could easily happen in a RL situation too. If you're firing your assault rifle at a commie bastard on the other side of the road and his buddy runs in the way, you'll probably hit his buddy rather than him.
~~
It is possible to make fighters that actually work well and don't get torn apart by battleship guns. Min/max target size is the next step to ensuring that. It also ensures that bigger turrets don't waste their time targeting small, fast ships theh have no chance of hitting.
I'll let others with more experience handle this though.
